Werd ov warning [Archive] - Renovate Forums

wheelinround

13th January 2010, 08:23 PM

Warning major Rant :((:((:((

To the word police I feel so sorry for you all in that you know language better than laws of your own country in regard to discrimination.

Each time you demand grammatical and spelling be corrected or when some one has got so frustrated they type dogmaticly you are breaching Human Rights laws of Australia. You then put U-beaut in breach of these laws also. It is their right to type how they feel expressing themselves in THEIR own way.

This is in relation to a pulled post, thanks to the mod's for their help I do appreciate it.:U:;

Honorary Bloke

14th January 2010, 12:29 AM

Warning major Rant :((:((:((

Each time you demand grammatical and spelling be corrected or when some one has got so frustrated they type dogmaticly you are breaching Human Rights laws of Australia. You then put U-beaut in breach of these laws also.

If this is true (which I doubt) it is the silliest thing I've heard of in a long while. :wink:

wheelinround

14th January 2010, 06:47 AM

If this is true (which I doubt) it is the silliest thing I've heard of in a long while. :wink:

Best check as Human rights laws originated :rolleyes: in the USA.

I would like to say this does not give anyone the right to use offensive language :no:............but isn't it strange we can accept the use of that more than bad spelling, grammatical error's or someone personal problem medical or otherwise.:roll:

Sebastiaan56

14th January 2010, 08:02 AM

Eye Rekkun U hav a pointe their Wheelin. Most are senzible enuff to realize that the language blongs to the usahs, not the spellink police.

Woodwould

14th January 2010, 08:25 AM

You're warning me?

I don't know what preceded this thread, but based solely on your trivializing people with skills you neither possess nor respect, I thought I'd step forwards.

Two things set us apart from our closest relatives; opposable thumbs and language. Many people display great assiduousness with the former, but alas, exhibit total indifference to the latter. Why is this? Why do some individuals take immense pride in showing off their dexterous capabilities, yet talk and write like illiterate cave dwellers? It's our duty as human beings to not only embrace what differentiates us from the rest of the animal kingdom, but become proficient with it.

Human rights are of the highest magnitude, but please don't be so dismissive of grammar and spelling. To do so shows ignorance well below your ability.

Sebastiaan56

14th January 2010, 09:56 AM

I agree that conceptual language that sets the human race apart. It certainly isnt tool use, I recently read about Octopus species near Indonesia that are tool users. But more than that, it is the ability to empathise and be compassionate which has led to the rise of social interaction and eventually the efficient transfer of knowledge. The minutiae of the recorded spelling and grammar of the English language must, by definition, always be behind the usage of the language. All languages are continually evolving to meet the changing environment in which they are used.

I have a son who is ferociously bright. He is the champion of the boy's dance group at his school and the school is the only one who has a boy's dance group in the district. This is due in no small part to his leadership. He has problems with spelling as the history of English is the mixing of Saxon, Norse, French and Latin and there are different grammars and spelling rules for different occasions and words. He is classed as an "under achiever" even though his verbal acuity and memory are well above average. He will need a recorder in exams to get the spelling accurate enough to satisfy the examiners as the tests he undergoes are about the language and not the purported topics of maths, science etc..

Sorry mate. This is a really hot topic for me. We treat dislexya with contempt but ignore the other portions of brain function that make us human. Its discrimination. My previous post was a clumsy attempt to make a point.

EDIT: I just reread all this and I realise the topic is well worn on this forum. apologies for repitition, Preaching to the choir methinks......

silentC

14th January 2010, 10:08 AM

Well, there are a couple of issues here, aren't there?

If someone is able to convey their meaning well enough that others can understand it, then that should be enough, shouldn't it? But language is such a complicated tool, especially when written, that another's meaning is not always clear. A case in point is that you had to ask Woodwould if he was talking to you, as it wasn't clear to you, although it was clear to me that he was talking to the original poster because of the common use of the word "warning".

All the bright ideas in the world aren't much use to anyone if you can't communicate them. So I think, whilst it's probably not so important to be able to spell well, or to know the rules of grammar, it is important that people learn to express themselves. It's an area that often could do with some improvement to allow us to understand each other better.

The other point to be made is that I doubt very much there is anything in human rights which makes it illegal to point out another's spelling mistakes. That is just ludicrous. I would like to see the bit of legislation that enforces that idea. It's a matter of good manners, not law.

tea lady

14th January 2010, 10:15 AM

I dunno! I heard an interview with someone who adds new words to the dictionary. Seems that if it is in general use it is a word. Personally, I like that English has changed so much with its contacts with other cultures. I love learning about word origins and how a particular definition developed. The only thing that stays the same is change, that's for sure. :) And we are all quite capable of working out what people mean. :cool: Or at least asking if we don't know. :)

wheelinround

14th January 2010, 10:16 AM

Sabastiaan well said :2tsup: its a shame we are so trained to believe that what we see as others imperfections are signs of idiocy lack of brains. Yet we applaud the man/woman who can deliver a verbal abuse of gutter language and accept this as normal.

I applaud those in life who step forward to help where others don't and can't for fear of what ever may befall them.

I hope your son comes to know and gain confidence in the fact that there are people all around the world who care and are willing to help not just put down.

Ray

silentC

14th January 2010, 10:17 AM

Seems that if it is in general use it is a word.
That's how all the words got there!

We have to have some rules though, otherwise flabberty fluggle jib grotweilding spontanickle?

tea lady

14th January 2010, 10:20 AM

That's how all the words got there!

We have to have some rules though, otherwise flabberty fluggle jib grotweilding spontanickle?:rofl: If we work on it I reckon we coul dget that in the dictionary by the next review.:D

wheelinround

14th January 2010, 10:21 AM

wheelinround

14th January 2010, 10:23 AM

That's how all the words got there!

We have to have some rules though, otherwise flabberty fluggle jib grotweilding spontanickle?

Learning to speak Welsh are we or Gaelic SC:;

silentC

14th January 2010, 10:26 AM

SC I realised what I had typed and couldn't find another way to put it, but it isn't the typing or spelling so much but the discrimination shown towards those people for what or how they do its marking them as D-Head's/dumb/stupid/illiterate.
Fair enough. I understand what you're getting at, although I still think it's not something a private citizen could get in trouble with. Libel perhaps? Not an expert by any means but I think that discrimination would only come into it if an employer refused to give you a job - but then if the job required written communication skills, there mightn't be much you could do about it.

wheelinround

14th January 2010, 10:34 AM

Fair enough. I understand what you're getting at, although I still think it's not something a private citizen could get in trouble with. Libel perhaps? Not an expert by any means but I think that discrimination would only come into it if an employer refused to give you a job - but then if the job required written communication skills, there mightn't be much you could do about it.

Sorry SC but here your wrong the laws are for all not just companies, this would mean the laws discriminate themselves.

jmk89

14th January 2010, 10:40 AM

SilentC

I agree entirely with you and would just like to add that one reason in favour of staying close to the accepted or traditional (I don't say 'correct' because they are all just accidents) spellings, grammar and syntax is that it makes it easier for readers to understand what the writer is trying to say. The further a writer strays from those accepted norms, the harder it is to understand what they are saying.

I agree that language develops (indeed my previous sentence shows one relatively recent development - the use of "they" (third person plural) as a non-gendered version of the third person singular instead of saying he/she/it). However, it usually develops by incremental alterations of the existing norms, not by wholesale abandonment of any attempt to know what the norms are or to observe them.

Sebastiaan - I am very sympathetic with your son's plight. His situation actually re-inforces my point - the ability to communicate in a way that the recipient can understand is essential to make use of an individual's intellect. Faraday (the scientist) said that a piece of research is not completed until it has been written up in clear and concise English in such a way that an educated reader could replicate the research form themselves. We all rely on communication, written and oral, to achieve. How is he with reading? If he has advanced verbal skills when communicating orally and his problem does not affect reading, and his problem is writing and adhering to the spelling conventions, why not try dictation software (eg Dragon Naturally Speaking). I use it at work for my own typing instead of the keyboard and it has improved dramatically over the past 5 years. Also learning to correct the output might be a skill that he can learn which could help his own writing.

Woodwould

14th January 2010, 10:57 AM

All the bright ideas in the world aren't much use to anyone if you can't communicate them. So I think, whilst it's probably not so important to be able to spell well, or to know the rules of grammar, it is important that people learn to express themselves. It's an area that often could do with some improvement to allow us to understand each other better.
I agree communication is the key.

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CBob%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>  </style> Of course language evolves, but it is a very gradual process. People who dump streams of incomprehensible gobbledegook in a forum thread are not part of the evolution; they're both ignorant and discourteous, or possess learning difficulties. Anyone would forgive the latter, but the former is inexcusable.

I have an older family member who had a very privileged education and obtained a degree in English, yet they email me appalling nonsense. Everything is typed in lower case, there's little, if any punctuation, words are strung together and spelling and grammar are completely ignored. I'm sad to say that I delete every email they send, unread. If they couldn't be bothered, or have the common decency to write legibly, why should the onus be placed on me to spend my time untangling and deciphering the rubbish? It's akin to people who queue-barge; they believe their time is more precious than those in the queue behind them.

Similarly, there are one or two members here whose posts, threads and PMs I won't read (even if the title interests me) simply because I have neither the time, nor inclination to attempt to make sense of them.

... it isn't the typing or spelling so much but the discrimination shown towards those people for what or how they do its marking them as D-Head's/dumb/stupid/illiterate.

Dumb/stupid/illiterate? No. D---head, lazy, ignorant and disrespectful? Absolutely!

And jmk89, I purposely used the third person plural to disguise the offender's gender. :U

silentC

14th January 2010, 10:57 AM

Sorry SC but here your wrong the laws are for all not just companies, this would mean the laws discriminate themselves.
Well, as I said I'm not an expert. However I'd like to see one case where a private citizen has been found in breech of anti-discrimination laws through being critical of the way another person expresses themselves in writing. Maybe if you wrote an article in which you said such and such was mentally challenged because they can't spell or use grammar correctly - that person might be able to sue you for libel? Not sure...

wheelinround

14th January 2010, 10:58 AM

Jeremy I know in your line of work a spelling mistake or grammatical error can and has swayed the outcome :doh: allowing a case to be thrown out. Yet for a Judge to accept that foul language is a part of life :?

As for Dragon Naturally Speaking it has to be the worst program I have seen used, if not set up properly and checked often. I have a close friend gave up on it in the same line of work as yourself. I get a newsletter each quarter that is created with it and its a verbal mess.

wheelinround

14th January 2010, 11:06 AM

Well, as I said I'm not an expert. However I'd like to see one case where a private citizen has been found in breech of anti-discrimination laws through being critical of the way another person expresses themselves in writing. Maybe if you wrote an article in which you said such and such was mentally challenged because they can't spell or use grammar correctly - that person might be able to sue you for libel? Not sure...

I could be wrong here but I recall a book written some time ago which used street talk which came under fire and ended up in court regarding it a personal attack on the writer. I don't think Libel would come into it. It was more a case of Discrimination.
A magazine used to be found in Centrelink which was all street talk.

Waldo

14th January 2010, 11:09 AM

I don't know what preceded the original post. With the exception of the example that Sebastiaan56 wrote, I agree with the writings of Woodwould and SilentC, that grammar, syntax and spelling are very important.

Don't get me started on the misuse of newsreaders with their use of were and was with total disregard to the use in singular and plural contexts. :no: :~

We do not understand any underlying issues that a person may have when making a post with regard to their ability to spell, however there is a magic little genie I love, that when I misspell a word that it has a red line under it. When such a case arises and if I cannot spell that word I use the dictionary on my Mac (which is almost always open to refer to).

Maybe my disdain for incorrect syntax is that in my job, if a job goes to press and I have stuffed up and not checked for any grammatical errors or otherwise, then it is a reflection on my professional ability to ensure on my clients behalf that I have fully undertaken my duty as is rightfully expected of me. An example of this is where a contracted consultant to me said it wasn't their job to ensure correct spelling or line breaks etc. even when they were responsible for the input of that copy into a final document, needless to say I wasn't impressed.

But I digress.

Read of my post what you will, but it is not a shot across the bows of those who cannot spell etc.. Maybe I am the last of a generation when the three R's mattered in school curriculum. :shrug:

silentC

14th January 2010, 11:38 AM

I've had a quick scan of the table of contents of the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/comlaw/Legislation/ActCompilation1.nsf/0/C3380D1AC643D437CA25768E0011A400?OpenDocument) and it doesn't seem to cover bullying or harassment by private individuals.

It covers:

Employment
Education
Access to premises
Goods, services and facilities
Accommodation
Land
Clubs and incorporated associations
Sport
Administration of Commonwealth laws and programs

If it's not covered by the act, I guess it's not covered by any law either. The other question is whether or not poor spelling and grammar constitutes a recognised disability - unless the poor spelling is the result of a recognised disability I suppose.

jmk89

14th January 2010, 11:45 AM

As for Dragon Naturally Speaking it has to be the worst program I have seen used, if not set up properly and checked often. I have a close friend gave up on it in the same line of work as yourself. I get a newsletter each quarter that is created with it and its a verbal mess.

As I said, the last few years has seen DNS improve dramatically - I get 99+% accuracy. The more you use it and correct it, the better it is. It also helps if you are good at dictation already, since clear enunciation of each word is essential to clear word recognition (actually, check my entries on the Forums - those done during work hours are done with DNS).

As for the newsletter, I suspect a lazy operator who disregards spelling, and common sense just so that they can be seen to have produced something.

Sebastiaan56

14th January 2010, 12:09 PM

We have to have some rules though, otherwise flabberty fluggle jib grotweilding spontanickle?

And may all of your telflambozies unticulate your enflabbles!

wheelinround

14th January 2010, 12:16 PM

As I said, the last few years has seen DNS improve dramatically - I get 99+% accuracy. The more you use it and correct it, the better it is. It also helps if you are good at dictation already, since clear enunciation of each word is essential to clear word recognition (actually, check my entries on the Forums - those done during work hours are done with DNS).

As for the newsletter, I suspect a lazy operator who disregards spelling, and common sense just so that they can be seen to have produced something.

:rotfl: So you've seen the same newsletter

Here in lies the problem!! You know what it should be and can set it up tweak it etc those who have a problem can't see it even if they say it wordperfect a mistake gets past them/us it is a brain eye hand function when typed or written.

Thanks for your input.

But we do digress, The post is generally about those who can't see that they are personally attacking and therefore discriminating.

Its not about the words and besides who gives a damn this is a forum not a courtroom or class room its where we are meant to share and have fun.:2tsup::2tsup:

Honorary Bloke

14th January 2010, 12:49 PM

Its not about the words and besides who gives a damn this is a forum not a courtroom or class room its where we are meant to share and have fun.

So, are we having fun yet? This thread was certainly not begun in the spirit of sharing and having fun. It was a rant (self-labeled). :?

wheelinround

14th January 2010, 12:56 PM

So, are we having fun yet? This thread was certainly not begun in the spirit of sharing and having fun. It was a rant (self-labeled). :?

Well are you HB a man of many words.

This true HB I did bring it up as a Rant, no but then again its a shame those word police and those who make personal attacks have to bring it up isn't it which started my rant in the first place.:roll:

ozhunter

14th January 2010, 01:17 PM

Her in lies the problem!!

:o

Sebastiaan56

14th January 2010, 01:18 PM

jmk89, I scanned read my way through this thread and then reread it properly over lunch. I missed your contribution. We will check it out for the lad. Thanks! The sad fact is that its impossible to change the outside world, he needs mechanisms to be able to manage.

FWIW and to segway just a bit there are a number of illuminating websites that deal with the vagaries of automated spelling and grammar correction. Im sure we have all received some beauties in our emails. Here is a page about MS's foibles but Im sure it happens in all automated systems. Dear Sandeep (http://faculty.washington.edu/sandeep/check/karen.htm)

wheelinround

14th January 2010, 01:27 PM

:o

see an oops from me now I have to go find the thing and fix it :B:;

FRB Design

14th January 2010, 01:43 PM

Warning major Rant :((:((:((

To the word police I feel so sorry for you all in that you know language better than laws of your own country in regard to discrimination.

Each time you demand grammatical and spelling be corrected or when some one has got so frustrated they type dogmatically you are breaching Human Rights laws of Australia. You then put U-beaut in breach of these laws also. It is their right to type how they feel expressing themselves in THEIR own way.

This is in relation to a pulled post, thanks to the mod's for their help I do appreciate it.:U:;

Am I wrong but the original post surely was not pulled over grammatical and spelling errors.

wheelinround

14th January 2010, 01:48 PM

jmk89

14th January 2010, 01:51 PM

Am I wrong but the original post surely was not pulled over grammatical and spelling errors.

I was given that impression by a Mod The original post was not about gramma or spelling etc but a very stressed Rant on another matter not by me but I had posted and was involved with the reason for the rant.
The reason was because the original thread was likely to have exposed one or more members who posted in the thread to legal problems.

wheelinround

14th January 2010, 01:59 PM

Maybe its time to close this off

ubeaut

14th January 2010, 02:44 PM

There was a deleted thread that prompted this one.......

It was never about the spelling no matter how bad.

It was the mods doing their job and saving yet another member from the possibility of a legal action after receiving advice from the business being attacked in the thread.

The spellik fing hads nufink at awl ta do wiff it, we basiklie coudln't care les.

End of story.

Cheers - Neil :U

PS anyone who feels the need to go ballistic on a business or individual should have a good look at this thread (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f90/while-youre-read-too-33200/) before doing so. They're more likely to get sued for the ballistic rant than for human rights over spelling.